From matti.k at gwsit.com.au  Sat Jan  1 11:25:20 2022
From: matti.k at gwsit.com.au (matti k)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 11:25:20 +1100
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <20211231235100.GI75481@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <4436350.kJ8LgFSmm2@direwolf.home.arpa.>
 <20211231235100.GI75481@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20220101112520.6a837e64@ws1.wobblyboot.net>

Oops I sent using an off list email account (not sure how it got
approved, some nice moderator i guess)  so may have missed replies ...

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 10:51:00 +1100
Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at FreeBSD.org> wrote:

> On Friday, 31 December 2021 at 13:11:51 +0800, Alastair Hogge wrote:
> > On Thursday, 30 December 2021 9:29:49 PM AWST matti k wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >
> > Hey Matti and *,
> >
> >> We are thinking about closing this down due to, well lack of
> >> interest.
> >
> > Closing the mailing list?
> >
> >> Is it a good idea?
> >
> > Due to a lack of interest, perhaps. If it has become a burden, then
> > kill it with fire :-D Maintaining something of no use is rather
> > pointless tho.
> 
> I think this is more a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
> Unless I'm missing something, maintaining a list costs effectively
> nothing.  Maybe people might find us by it.
> 

I think the issue is with mailman-2.x which requires work to migrate
from 




From agh at riseup.net  Sat Jan  1 12:12:31 2022
From: agh at riseup.net (Alastair Hogge)
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 09:12:31 +0800
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <20220101112520.6a837e64@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <20211231235100.GI75481@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20220101112520.6a837e64@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
Message-ID: <5441095.HlG7eSQroZ@direwolf.home.arpa.>

On Saturday, 1 January 2022 8:25:20 AM AWST matti k wrote:
> Oops I sent using an off list email account (not sure how it got
> approved, some nice moderator i guess)  so may have missed replies ...

And I have not yet received Groggy's email to the list.

> On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 10:51:00 +1100
> 
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at FreeBSD.org> wrote:
> > On Friday, 31 December 2021 at 13:11:51 +0800, Alastair Hogge wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 30 December 2021 9:29:49 PM AWST matti k wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > > 
> > > Hey Matti and *,
> > > 
> > >> We are thinking about closing this down due to, well lack of
> > >> interest.
> > > 
> > > Closing the mailing list?
> > > 
> > >> Is it a good idea?
> > > 
> > > Due to a lack of interest, perhaps. If it has become a burden, then
> > > kill it with fire :-D Maintaining something of no use is rather
> > > pointless tho.
> > 
> > I think this is more a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
> > Unless I'm missing something, maintaining a list costs effectively
> > nothing.  Maybe people might find us by it.
> 
> I think the issue is with mailman-2.x which requires work to migrate
> from

Who was it that recently migrated the FreeBSD Project's lists (from was it mailman?) to 
mlmmj[0]? It did create some unfortunate churn.

I have not looked at any mailing list related software for well over 8 years. Is this 
something we could work on together? Does Peter have spare time between work and 
sleep? I suspect not, hence why you started the thread.

0: https://www.freshports.org/search.php?
stype=name&method=match&query=mlmmj&num=10&orderby=category&orderbyupdow
n=asc&search=Search&format=html&branch=head[1]

-- 
To health and anarchy
Alastair

--------
[1] https://www.freshports.org/search.php?
stype=name&method=match&query=mlmmj&num=10&orderby=category&orderbyupdow
n=asc&search=Search&format=html&branch=head

From john at jmarshall.id.au  Sat Jan  1 18:46:05 2022
From: john at jmarshall.id.au (John Marshall)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 18:46:05 +1100
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
Message-ID: <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021, 00:29 +1100, matti k wrote:
> We are thinking about closing this down due to, well lack of interest.

lack of use != lack of interest (necessarily)

The mailing list is a great way to reach out to folk who are/were
sufficiently keen to register but who, for whatever reason, do not
frequent the BUGS IRC channel(s).  I think canning the mailing list
would be a shame.  A few years ago, I would have volunteered to take it
over but I am no longer in a position to do that (Sorry!).

> Perhaps onto a new paradigm ?

I know lots of people are comfortable with "social media" but I'm not
one of them.  If by "a new paradigm" you mean Farcebook or similar, you
can count me out.  I'd be happy to subscribe to a replacement mailing
list if that becomes necessary, and the existing mailing list would be
the best way to inform me about that.

Happy New Year folks!

Regards,

-- 
John Marshall

From andyf at andyit.com.au  Sat Jan  1 20:09:56 2022
From: andyf at andyit.com.au (Andy Farkas)
Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2022 19:09:56 +1000
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
Message-ID: <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>


On 1/01/2022 5:46 pm, John Marshall wrote:

> lack of use != lack of interest (necessarily) 

Hear hear.

> ... I think canning the mailing listwould be a shame.

Yep.

> I know lots of people are comfortable with "social media" but I'm not
> one of them.  If by "a new paradigm" you mean Farcebook or similar, you
> can count me out.

My sentiments exactly.

-andyf


From areilly at bigpond.net.au  Sun Jan  2 08:05:49 2022
From: areilly at bigpond.net.au (Andrew Reilly)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2022 08:05:49 +1100
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
 <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
Message-ID: <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>

If it was an open-source social thing, perhaps it would be worth trying.  I've heard of a few, but never tried them.  Can't really see what's wrong with email, myself.  What problem are we trying to solve?

Cheers,
-- 
Andrew

On 1 January 2022 8:09:56 pm AEDT, Andy Farkas <andyf at andyit.com.au> wrote:
>
>On 1/01/2022 5:46 pm, John Marshall wrote:
>
>lack of use != lack of interest (necessarily) 
>Hear hear.
>
>> ... I think canning the mailing listwould be a shame.
>
>Yep.
>
>> I know lots of people are comfortable with "social media" but I'm not
>> one of them.  If by "a new paradigm" you mean Farcebook or similar, you
>> can count me out.
>
>My sentiments exactly.
>
>-andyf
>
>_______________________________________________
>BUGS mailing list
>BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
>https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs


From dean at fragfest.com.au  Tue Jan 11 12:25:25 2022
From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 17:25:25 -0800
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
 <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
 <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>

Isnt lack of interest the problem?

On 2022-01-01 13:05, Andrew Reilly wrote:
> If it was an open-source social thing, perhaps it would be worth
> trying.  I've heard of a few, but never tried them.  Can't really see
> what's wrong with email, myself.  What problem are we trying to solve?
> 
> Cheers,
> --
> Andrew
> 
> On 1 January 2022 8:09:56 pm AEDT, Andy Farkas <andyf at andyit.com.au> 
> wrote:
>> 
>> On 1/01/2022 5:46 pm, John Marshall wrote:
>> 
>> lack of use != lack of interest (necessarily)
>> Hear hear.
>> 
>>> ... I think canning the mailing listwould be a shame.
>> 
>> Yep.
>> 
>>> I know lots of people are comfortable with "social media" but I'm not
>>> one of them.  If by "a new paradigm" you mean Farcebook or similar, 
>>> you
>>> can count me out.
>> 
>> My sentiments exactly.
>> 
>> -andyf
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BUGS mailing list
>> BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
>> https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs
> 
> _______________________________________________
> BUGS mailing list
> BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
> https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs

From julian at precisium.com.au  Tue Jan 11 14:11:12 2022
From: julian at precisium.com.au (Julian Noble)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 14:11:12 +1100
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
Message-ID: <39affad3-a16b-9802-bab8-6f513c2713c8@precisium.com.au>

It'd be a shame.
I tend to use the meetup app to search for local tech get-togethers - 
and I can't find a BUGS presence there.
I think something like meetup in addition to the mailing list would be 
good.

My sense is that some of the BSD based platforms like pfsense, opnsense 
are just hitting their stride, offering a vastly superior experience to 
the garbage offered by vendors such as ubiquiti, and have the potential 
to bring some new converts.
It's hardly a great time to be assessing interest in groups with a 
potential physical get-together aspect - so if there aren't any real 
costs I hope you can lean towards keeping it running.

Even though the activity level here is ultra low - there are possibly 
lurkers such as myself who use it as an intermittent reminder to one day 
get involved.

Cheers,
Julian

On 2021-12-31 12:29 am, matti k wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We are thinking about closing this down due to, well lack of interest.
>
> Is it a good idea?
>
> Perhaps onto a new paradigm ?
>
> Let me know your thoughts if you can thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Matti
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BUGS mailing list
> BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
> https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs


From darren at worley.org.au  Tue Jan 11 14:53:57 2022
From: darren at worley.org.au (Darren)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 14:53:57 +1100 (AEDT)
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <39affad3-a16b-9802-bab8-6f513c2713c8@precisium.com.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <39affad3-a16b-9802-bab8-6f513c2713c8@precisium.com.au>
Message-ID: <59769820.30102.1641873237347.JavaMail.zimbra@worley.org.au>


Hey BUGs,

It would be a sad day, but a disused list, that is for most parts abandoned and not as 'updated' as some other social methods, sure sad, but a reality. 
Anyone know of a slack that is specific to BSD? 

We get a spurt of activity as ppl respond to the same type of thread every few years, list moves, etc or has it decades now? but no real BSD talk. 
I've been a BSD supporter since well.. I can say _almost_ 30 years!  
I for one would be happy to see it stay AND USED !!!! 
Sadly, I miss the good ol' days of this list banter. I don't think it will ever be as good as it once was at its peak well over 2 decades ago now.
However, I'm a realist, and think I agree with the sad truth that maybe it's time to move on? Sadly, some of the great, and valued friends I met here, ones who helped and inspired, and supported me building an ISP in the early 90's, have also sadly moved on. RIP to our perpetual members. Thanks for the wicked industry ride, the awesome memories, and the unwavering support.

When/IF? it closes, I'll have Scotch :whisky: and salute all that have participated in these sacred threads.
  
Cheers, Health and Happiness to each and every one of you still here! 

DarrenW


----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Noble" <julian at precisium.com.au>
To: bugs at bugs.au.freebsd.org
Sent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2022 14:11:12
Subject: Re: [BUGS] Hello

It'd be a shame.
I tend to use the meetup app to search for local tech get-togethers - 
and I can't find a BUGS presence there.
I think something like meetup in addition to the mailing list would be 
good.

My sense is that some of the BSD based platforms like pfsense, opnsense 
are just hitting their stride, offering a vastly superior experience to 
the garbage offered by vendors such as ubiquiti, and have the potential 
to bring some new converts.
It's hardly a great time to be assessing interest in groups with a 
potential physical get-together aspect - so if there aren't any real 
costs I hope you can lean towards keeping it running.

Even though the activity level here is ultra low - there are possibly 
lurkers such as myself who use it as an intermittent reminder to one day 
get involved.

Cheers,
Julian

On 2021-12-31 12:29 am, matti k wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We are thinking about closing this down due to, well lack of interest.
>
> Is it a good idea?
>
> Perhaps onto a new paradigm ?
>
> Let me know your thoughts if you can thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Matti
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BUGS mailing list
> BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
> https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs

_______________________________________________
BUGS mailing list
BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs

From areilly at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jan 11 16:17:38 2022
From: areilly at bigpond.net.au (Andrew Reilly)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 16:17:38 +1100
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
 <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
 <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>
 <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>
Message-ID: <2AF8ADAD-209B-46BF-9650-12FF4002D915@bigpond.net.au>

If (perceived) lack of interest is the problem, how does changing the medium from one that already has a bunch of rusted-on subscribers, and using a protocol that everyone, on every platform can use, to one (as yet unnamed) with no current subscribers and an unknown uptake rate or client software availability help?

Cheers,
-- 
Andrew

On 11 January 2022 12:25:25 pm AEDT, Dean Hamstead <dean at fragfest.com.au> wrote:
>Isnt lack of interest the problem?
>
>On 2022-01-01 13:05, Andrew Reilly wrote:
>> If it was an open-source social thing, perhaps it would be worth
>> trying.  I've heard of a few, but never tried them.  Can't really see
>> what's wrong with email, myself.  What problem are we trying to solve?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> --
>> Andrew
>> 
>> On 1 January 2022 8:09:56 pm AEDT, Andy Farkas <andyf at andyit.com.au> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 1/01/2022 5:46 pm, John Marshall wrote:
>>> 
>>> lack of use != lack of interest (necessarily)
>>> Hear hear.
>>> 
>>>> ... I think canning the mailing listwould be a shame.
>>> 
>>> Yep.
>>> 
>>>> I know lots of people are comfortable with "social media" but I'm not
>>>> one of them.  If by "a new paradigm" you mean Farcebook or similar, you
>>>> can count me out.
>>> 
>>> My sentiments exactly.
>>> 
>>> -andyf
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BUGS mailing list
>>> BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
>>> https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> BUGS mailing list
>> BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
>> https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs
>_______________________________________________
>BUGS mailing list
>BUGS at bugs.au.freebsd.org
>https://www.rulingia.com/mailman/listinfo/bugs


From Peter.Ross at bogen.in-berlin.de  Tue Jan 11 17:04:13 2022
From: Peter.Ross at bogen.in-berlin.de (Peter Ross)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 17:04:13 +1100
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <2AF8ADAD-209B-46BF-9650-12FF4002D915@bigpond.net.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
 <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
 <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>
 <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>
 <2AF8ADAD-209B-46BF-9650-12FF4002D915@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <a06f578a-3916-cf6e-dda4-4de6d917520c@bogen.in-berlin.de>

Hi everyone,

I am a member of a FreeBSD list in Germany and one home here in 
Victoria. Both seem to be quiet or defunct. We had regular social 
dinners in North Richmond but that does not happen for years, AFAIK.

On the German mailing list I see once in a while an announcement of a 
local group meeting, e.g. in Hamburg but it's obviously out of range.

The Linux Users Victoria (LUV) are still active.

Is it that use of the BSDs has declined? I don't know but I barely see 
it around me these days.

But there are also forums etc. which I never joined. I am not sure 
whether that is where the action is now.

A short summary of my own FreeBSD experience over the last years.

At work i deal with Linux (currently Ubuntu) in my everyday job, using 
containers etc.

I am working with pfSense which is a FreeBSD-based firewall project. We 
used FreeNAS but we moved to Ubuntu and ZFS a while ago, mainly because 
nearly all other systems are Ubuntu. A lot of backups and DR etc. are 
using ZFS and its features, encryption, compression etc.

We are also use Linux containers and I am quite often reminded of 
FreeBSD jails. I was writing for own use a jail-based framework, from 
2011-15. That is actually the last time I really used FreeBSD.

A private server is still running on FreeBSD but I don't maintain it 
particular well. Every time I do something with the scripts I wrote 
years ago, to update/replace the jails, I need an hour to remember what 
I did earlier.

I would be interested to know what others do/don't do with BSD.

Cheers

Peter


From andyf at andyit.com.au  Thu Jan 13 13:56:24 2022
From: andyf at andyit.com.au (Andy Farkas)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:56:24 +1000
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
 <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
 <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>
 <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>
Message-ID: <6841d8aa-484e-e733-03d1-c8ff36c44e56@andyit.com.au>


On 11/01/2022 11:25 am, Dean Hamstead wrote:

> Isnt lack of interest the problem?

Your gallery is rather interesting...

 ?https://fragfest.com.au/gallery/v/lans/megalan/megalan-barracudas/aau.jpg.html

:)

-andyf


From dean at fragfest.com.au  Tue Jan 18 18:35:22 2022
From: dean at fragfest.com.au (Dean Hamstead)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:35:22 -0800
Subject: [BUGS] Hello
In-Reply-To: <a06f578a-3916-cf6e-dda4-4de6d917520c@bogen.in-berlin.de>
References: <20211231002949.21f2cefc@ws1.wobblyboot.net>
 <YdAGvXX7m7hJIViC@rwpc16.gfn.riverwillow.net.au>
 <505652a2-f3a4-73dc-16f7-ae90d20dcc33@andyit.com.au>
 <33AF9F4D-ABC2-49B0-BB0F-85316BAAC4CF@bigpond.net.au>
 <6f5c858785fad0dd79476a265782e95a@fragfest.com.au>
 <2AF8ADAD-209B-46BF-9650-12FF4002D915@bigpond.net.au>
 <a06f578a-3916-cf6e-dda4-4de6d917520c@bogen.in-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <1ce57cbc-a96a-dd44-5a2e-92c0c81373e3@fragfest.com.au>

The OPNsense and pfSense forums are very active. The facebook groups for 
the same and for the different BSD's are quite active too.

I think the issue is that newcomers don't really join email lists. And 
web forums are somewhere people post when they are desperate.

Lots of people don't like facebook, i get that*, but lots of people are 
on facebook so if we want to grow the group then the group needs to go 
where the people are.

I do think that geographically tied groups are nowadays only relevant 
for organising meet ups, support and social have better critical mass as 
international facebook groups/subreddits/etc. This has been the model we 
are encouraging with perl groups around the world.


Dean

* email lists have a number of serious deficiencies which l have written 
about in great length on other email lists, in summary they have poor 
moderation features, an inability to edit once something is sent, and an 
inconsistent user experience.

On 10/1/22 22:04, Peter Ross wrote:
> Is it that use of the BSDs has declined? I don't know but I barely see 
> it around me these days.